I guess I blogged too soon about "mission accomplished."

I tried to post G'night moon with the automation I'd put together that worked in the Traffic post, and it didn't work.

But first, an update...

I received the 128GB of RAM in the mail yesterday, and I installed it last night. Hilarity ensued.

It took three boot attempts to finally get the iMac to boot into the login screen. After logging in, the computer pauses for what feels like minutes, I haven't timed it yet, before getting to Finder, and then running all the stuff that runs at startup. I've been through this drill many times now, and it doesn't improve. I guess it's doing some kind of RAM check or some other diagnostic that takes an inordinate amount of time compared to booting with 64GB.

But once it's up and running, it reports it has 128GB of RAM and seems otherwise content.

I don't reboot often, usually, so I decided it was something I can live with.

Then I tried to do the G'night moon post.

The last part of the automation runs an Automator app called Sync Server, which is a "Watch me do" recorded script that selects the Forklift favorites menubar item. This automation ran correctly on Wednesday. Today, it failed. The cursor moved under app control and tried to click the menu bar items, but seemingly failed and then wouldn't release the mouse cursor. Drag the mouse and it would drag itself right back up to where that final menubar item was supposed to be. Click-it, don't click-it, makes no difference. Little gear spinning in the menubar. Did the command-tab thing hoping I could get to Sync Server and just do a CMD-Q or Esc or something... It's not an app that appears in command-tab.

Ugh. Press the power button, hit return for Shut Down.

Restart, and wait.

While I was waiting, I used the 13" M1 MBP to search for some clue on Automator not releasing the mouse cursor. No joy there.

Once everything was back up and running, I launched Automator and opened Sync Server. Tried to run it from the main run command, just to see if it would run in Automator. Same thing, trapped the cursor. Did CMD-Q to quit Automator, thinking that would release the cursor. Get a dialog that there's an automation running with two buttons, the left one being Quit or "Quit anyway," the right one being the default and selected by pressing Return, "Cancel."

Ugh!

I took a stab at various key combinations with Return to see if I could make it select the non-default, since I couldn't use the mouse. No joy. Not saying there isn't one, there are a million of these little tricks hidden in Mac OS, but I wasn't going to go look for one just then, so hit the power button again.

Minutes later, back into Automator. Deleted the actions, re-recorded it. Ran it from Automator. Ran fine.

Saved it, ran just the Sync Server app and it reported it didn't have permission and I needed to give it permission in Accessibility in System Settings. Well, it does have permission in Accessibility in System Settings. Ugh!

Figured I'd log out and log back in and see if that reconciled something. Nope, same error. Logging out and in is a lot faster than re-booting though.

So, what worked on Wednesday, doesn't work on Friday. What works in Automator, doesn't work outside of Automator. Sigh.

There are probably better ways to do what I want to do anyway, so I guess I'll look into those. But wow, this hit-or-miss thing with Mac OS Ventura and automation is frustrating. I did open the recorded actions and looked at the associated UI script events and that all looked benign. No clues there.

It's a mystery. I know Automator has something of a less than sterling reputation. While it doesn't do a lot, the things it does do, it seems to do them well. Except "Watch me do." And something in Apple's security features is bumping into it as well. Beyond my pay-grade.

Another test post.

Went to lock the front door last night and spotted the crescent moon.

Mission accomplished!

In the Photos to Tinderbox script, now a system service with a keyboard shortcut, the last step was to run an Automator application called Export Photo. That's the one that actually takes the image from Photos and places it in the folder that gets sync'ed to the server and then cleans up after itself.

I figured I'd add another Automator action to that application in the form of "Watch me do..." and have the computer upload the image for me. There are probably other/better ways to do it, but that seemed easy to me.

Well, it wasn't. It would work fine in Automator, but it wouldn't work within the Export Photo application when called by the Photos to Tinderbox script. After much trial and error, I had to create a separate application called "Sync Server," that included "Watch me do..." by itself. Then the Photos to Tinderbox script calls Sync Server after Export Photo, and everything works fine.

It seems to have something to do with keeping application permissions straight in Accessibility, it can't control more than one app at a time it seems. But the script can call as many apps as it needs to.

All this does is eliminate another fiddly mouse movement, and does it faster than I can. So when I select a photo to post in the marmot, everything but the text is done for me.

After I "Export to html" from Tinderbox, I can then call Sync Server directly using LaunchBar, which is also a nice convenience.

I feel very productive today. I'm taking the rest of the day off...

This is a test post, the latest of many. This one seems to be successful. The next post will determine if this success can be replicated.

Originally posted at Nice Marmot 11:39 Wednesday, 19 July 2023

Bloggin' like it's 1999! AKMA tips his metaphorical hat at my fitness efforts. He's been doing remarkably well with consistency, even grappling with plantar fasciitis, which I know quite well.

I'll be fumbling along with this for a little while anyway. I actually miss running, but we'll see.

CTRL-Shift-P (Post pic? Photo to marmot?) seems to work. Now if I can only remember it.

Works from the Services menu. Couldn't find it in the System Settings to assign the keyboard shortcut, but I just wanted to make sure it ran as a service first. Now I'll dig a little deeper and give it a shortcut.

This is a test post. I've embedded the Photos to Tinderbox AppleScript into an Automator action, which I will save as a Quick Action. I can assign a keyboard shortcut to that. As "fiddly" goes, hitting that little FastScripts menu icon and then hitting the right item can be a bit fiddly. A keyboard shortcut might be nicer.

So far, the script runs fine in the Automator editor. I'll save it and try again as a Quick Action.

Then I may try it as a dictation command.

The fun and games continue here at marmot headquarters.

I mentioned the other day that walking was about the only exercise I got. I used to run a fair amount. A couple of marathons, a bunch of half-marathons, 15Ks, and so on. But I developed a persistent case of achilles tendonitis that always seemed to reappear once I got up to about 5 miles. (Not the 5-mile point in a run, training to be able to run 5 miles.) So, I gave up. Alas.

Well, that was several years ago. Now I walk and occasionally bike. I'm several years older and a lot heavier. Don't really know if I can ever run again, but I figured it was time to find out.

So, the other day, at the Outlet Mall, I bought a pair of Asics Gel Kayanos, an extra-large sleeveless, bright yellow, "Please don't hit me," running shirt and an extra-large pair of shorts.

Then I proceeded to self-sabotage by eating several pints of Ben and Jerry's, which were on sale BOGO at Publix, and that's like makin' money!

Meanwhile, the shoes have been sitting next to the bed and I try not to look at them in the morning.

This morning I was awake at 0430 and I figured, "What the hell. Let's go see."

I exercise (I won't say "run.") in the dark, so no one can see this fat old man lumbering down the road. I got a little $5 app for the phone that sets intervals for me. I did 2-min walking and 30s "running."

The good news is that the interval split was just about perfect. I didn't have a coronary. Did my usual 2.5 mile loop at a pace about 15s faster than my "fastest" walking pace. (That normally requires temps in the 50s. My pace really seems dependent on temperature/humidity.) Nothing really hurts, yet, though my right knee seems like it wasn't happy.

I'll play with this for a while. No big ambition, just see what I can do.

I'm not dead yet.

Kind of a test post to see what happens with the title. Went out with the E-M1x to try and shoot some dragonflies in flight behind the house, but the background is much too busy to reliably grab focus. Need to do this near a pond.

There's a piece in Ars Technica that speculates on how long Apple will continue to support intel based Macs with OS updates and security updates.

Timely, because I just ordered 128GB of RAM for my 2019 iMac this morning. It wasn't cheap, but let's just say it was "affordable."

I bought this iMac just as we moved into Saul Hall. Until then, I'd been using a late-2012 13" MacBook Pro Retina, which I'd pretty much max'ed out when I purchased it. I don't recall if there was a 16GB option, but if there was that's the one thing I regret not ordering. I got the i7 processor and 768GB SSD along with 8GB of RAM, and it was a pretty serviceable system for most of the time I owned it. The one glaring weakness it had was the limited RAM. Toward the end, it was spinning pinwheels of infinite futility anytime I had more than a few tabs open in Safari.

I ordered this iMac with the 8-core i9 processor and the Radeon Pro Vega 48 with 8GB of VRAM, 32GB of installed RAM and 1TB SSD. I upgraded the RAM to 64GB in November of 2020.

At the moment, I have 106 tabs open in Safari and 49 apps running. It remains responsive and Activity Monitor is showing Memory Pressure as low, but I'm using 978MB of swap on the SSD. (That's by no means "normal." I've been looking stuff up. But fifty or more isn't out of the ordinary.)

The idea when I bought this machine was that I'd use it for at least as long as the 13" MacBook Pro Retina, about 7 years. I did hope to get a few years more out of it, but I never anticipated the switch to the M-series SOCs. This machine cost me $4147 with tax, which probably sounds outrageous, but the MacBook Pro was $3200 back in 2012, and I bought a 27" Thunderbolt Display to connect it to, so that was over $5K back in 2012.

I don't know exactly how long I'll be able to keep this iMac up-to-date in terms of security. Maybe another four, based on the Ars piece. I went back and forth on upgrading the RAM, given the relatively short lifetime of "safe" operation. But I decided I wanted to go ahead and do it now, to try and get the most performance out of this machine. If I'm hitting the SSD for swap, that's kind of a waste of SSD write-cycles, so I guess I need more RAM.

Frankly, the whole thing is kind of absurd. There is no real justification for why I need this much compute power. It's just a function of my privilege and (relative) wealth that I can feel as though this is something reasonable to do.

I'll have to revisit this internal debate when Vision Pro debuts.

There's something I was thinking about this morning, which I plan to write about in a different forum, but it called to mind Theodore Roosevelt's, "the arena" quote. And perhaps it came to mind because I'd only recently read Steve Makofsky's blog post about the arena.

In case you don't click through, here's the famous passage:

"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat." - Theodore Roosevelt

And he also includes a quote from Brené Brown, who I adore, but who I think is wrong on this issue:

"If you're not in the arena also getting your ass kicked, I'm not interested in your feedback." — Brené Brown

Makofsky is making a different point in his post about our "inner critic." It's a valid point, one that I agree with, but it's not the point of this post.

People kind of "get" Roosevelt's point, about the nobility of daring and striving and devotion. But I've seen this passage most often used as a means of deflection, as a defense mechanism to reject criticism; and indeed to cast aspersions back on the one who dares to criticize.

And here's a weakness of "the arena" as metaphor: It divides us.

It divides us into those who are "in" the arena and those who are supposedly "out" of the arena. Spectators. People dismissed by Brown as being "in the cheap seats."

And here's another weakness of the arena. By describing everyone not in the arena as mere spectators, "timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat," who aren't "also getting your ass kicked," then the people so gloriously described as "in the arena," are not creators, they're performers.

"Are you not entertained?" Maximus, Gladiator

Here's the reality: We're all in the arena. Shakespeare knew, "All the world's a stage."

If you're LGBTQI in Florida, trying to live your identity in a political culture that's trying to make you disappear, you're "in the arena also getting your ass kicked.

If you're struggling with student loans, you're in the arena.

If you're Black in an America that wants to wish away systemic racism rather than confront it and deal with it, you're in the arena.

If you're a parent, you're in the arena.

If you're someone dealing with health issues, especially in America, you are so in the arena.

We are all in this together.

Everyone gets lost sometimes, and partly that's because we don't listen to voices that come from "the cheap seats." Sure, hurt people say hurtful things. But it always pays to listen. It always pays to be interested in the feedback.

Here's a better quote of uncertain provenance:

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle you know nothing about.

It's a better attitude. And something to keep in mind when offering criticism, or receiving it.

I brought along the decade old E-M5 with the 14-150mm zoom mounted. I've usually carried the 75-300mm zoom because I'd often see birds and 150mm (300mm effective focal length), often isn't quite enough. One of the things I enjoy about photography, especially with a long zoom, is that it allows me to see these beautiful birds in much closer detail than I can with just my eyes. I remain amazed that I have this facility at my fingertips.

But I haven't been seeing many birds lately. So I wanted to see if I would notice anything else, kind of examine whether the kind of lens I'm carrying affects my perceptions or attention on my walk.

I think perhaps it does. If the sky is particularly interesting, it's hard to miss, and I'd often use my phone to try to capture it when I was carrying the long zoom. But the 75-300 doesn't allow for particularly close focusing, so I don't often look for anything close to the ground.

Anyway, I have another shot of this bluebird, standing still after munching on a bug. But this one felt kind of Cartier-Bresson, and I like it.

It was a productive walk. I ended up with 10 "keepers." If you're so inclined, they're up at Flickr.

Didn't see any birds on my walk this morning, but on our way back from the farmers' market (really just an outdoor vendor event) in the golf cart, these wild turkeys crossed the road and the multi-purpose path in front of us. Fortunately, I'd brought a camera along. There are 11 young ones. I've seen small groups before, 3-5 individuals, never a whole family this large. It was fun watching mom go after one of the chicks(?) when it started to wander off.

(I used my newly revised Photos to Tinderbox script to post this image I just took with my iPhone.)

Some ideas seem to take a very long time to come together.

Mitzi and I were in Scottsdale, Arizona in March 2022 and we were doing some window shopping when she spotted a photo of someone who looked familiar in the window of one of the shops. She asked me if I recognized the man with his arm around a woman who appeared to be the proprietor. I told Mitzi, "That's the Boss!" and walked right in.

We were met by the woman in the photo and I asked her, "What did Bruce buy?"

And thus we became acquainted with Beverly and Brian Moore, proprietors of Earthen Rare. We had a very nice conversation for some time. I learned Bruce bought Desert Prayer, which is the one closest to my hand. The middle one is called Born to Run, which was inspired by his visit, and the third one is just a bead bracelet because I thought I needed three.

I recall a blip that appeared briefly on my radar when she mentioned how much she loved Springsteen, but qualified it by adding, "I don't always agree with everything he's saying," or words to that effect. And we went on talking.

They asked if I'd write them a Google review, and I said of course.

So when we got back to our hotel, I googled them and discovered that they were Trump supporters. Pretty strong Trump supporters. So I was trying to reconcile the impressions I'd formed in their shop where they were a very charming and creative couple, and the photographic evidence of their strong support for Trump.

I promised them a favorable review, so I wrote one and consciously tried to ensure that what I'd just learned didn't dampen my praise for our experience in the shop.

That experience of cognitive dissonance was to remain with me to this day. While we were flying home, masked, during a time when masks were divisive because they were mandatory, I kept reflecting on this feeling that I liked these people, but I didn't like people who supported Trump.

The thought that came to mind during that reflection was from War Games: "The only way to win is not to play the game."

It seemed to me that there were powerful entities, politicians and corporations, who work hard to divide us, because they can exploit that conflict for their own benefit. Who does it serve? It certainly doesn't serve us.

But I still get angry when I hear Trump supporters, and I don't like that feeling. And I live in a place that is almost Trump central. So I avoid people I don't know and don't talk about politics unless I do and I know they're on "my side." It's not a great way to live.

I often think of Beverly and Brian and wonder how many wonderful people I don't get to know because I'm afraid they're Trump supporters.

A couple of weeks ago, Mitzi and I went to a Jacksonville Jumbo Shrimp (Don't ask.) baseball game, as part of a group outing for communications professionals, Mitzi being the professional. She ran into an old friend and colleague she hadn't seen in a long time and spent time catching up with her, while I talked with her husband.

He was wearing a bead bracelet, and it made me think of Beverly and Brian. And I didn't know him at all, so I tried to steer around politics. But he was in police work and in Jacksonville policing is political, so it kind of came up and it was interesting. I still can't say for sure where he is on the political spectrum, but he didn't react viscerally to some of the tentative points I offered, and we went on to talk a little bit about local politics. And I found it somewhat illuminating, so I was glad we had the conversation.

But seeing his bracelet reminded me of mine, which have sat in a box since we got back from Arizona, save for one evening when I wore them because I'd spent quite a lot of money on them. And I thought to myself that I ought to dig them out and wear them now and then. Because they look cool, if nothing else.

I left Twitter because I was tired of what I was becoming. Angry all the time. I have learned that Mastodon can replicate that experience, and I can continue to make myself angry there, without the benefit of the local social connections I'd made on Twitter.

Le sigh.

I saw something recently about the radical faith of Fred Rogers, or something to that effect. I'd made a mental note to look for it and read it, because there may be a clue there for me. The video I posted the other day, about dying, made me think about all this anger and whether or how it served me.

The "still small voice" is nagging at me, and my inner voice is arguing with it. And I haven't quite figured out how that's going to all work out yet.

Anyway, last night we went to an event over in Jacksonville Beach, and it occurred to me that I should have worn my beads! Because they're cool.

And then it occurred to me that they could serve me. That if I met someone who was a right-winger (50% chance on your best day in Florida, 75% chance here in St Johns County.), and they said something that aroused a feeling of anger, the beads could remind me of Beverly and Brian. And I could recall that feelings pass. And that there's nothing wrong with having feelings. It's acting on them that gets us in trouble.

When we got home from the event, we finished watching Ford vs. Ferrari, and I did some digging into the biography of Leo Beebe, because I noticed I was having very negative feelings about a real person who existed, who may not have been the person depicted in the film. It turns out, he probably wasn't. But the filmmakers chose to make his character personify the worst characteristics of corporate culture.

And that's what I was thinking about this morning on my walk, which made me think about having all these feelings, and remember Beverly and Brian and my beads and something to blog about.

Everybody's out on the run tonight

Baby we were born to run

Just got back from the walk where I thought of several things to blog about, but now can't seem to recall. So maybe I'll write about the things I do recall, which is mostly the last thing I was thinking about.

It's hot and muggy and there are biting flies here in Florida. I walk because it's just about the only exercise I get. (I have started riding the bike again, though.) I carry the camera because I'll often see a bird or a gator or something that catches my eye. Most of the time I'm thinking about something. I'll say hi to a neighbor, like I did this morning. I sent him a link to my Flickr photostream yesterday and he wanted to thank me and say how much he enjoyed the photos.

But when I think about my experience, chiefly my experience of my sweaty body, often with a new itch or sting, it's in the context of wanting to get this walk over. Because it's not pleasant. I walk early while the sun is low, because once it's on you, it's intense. That's not to say I think about the experience all the time, because I'm usually thinking about something else. (Which has just reminded me of one of the things I thought I'd write about. Cool.)

During the last minutes of this morning's walk, I thought about the fact that one day I won't be able to do this. I think it was prompted by some memory of running, and how that seems behind me now. (Maybe not. We'll see.) It occurred to me that one day, I may be looking back at days like today, and missing the time when I could get out and walk, even at my pathetic 19:08 min pace. So I concentrated on how the good parts felt. My legs moving with some intention, some strength, the air in my lungs, my arms moving, my back not hurting. (Carrying a lighter camera rig on a sling with the camera resting on the small of my back has made an enormous difference.)

So I made an effort to appreciate how that felt, and ignored the stinging sweat running into my eyes.

Which is not what I'd intended to blog about. Never entered my mind.

Until it did.

I seem to have an issue with the DJI mini recording all the DNG files, or with Image Capture downloading them. I didn't have .DNG files for each image. But that may have been a useful constraint. This was a quick and dirty with Affinity Photo 2 this time. Larger version at Flickr.

Put the drone up when I saw the clouds approaching. This is a 7-shot pano stitched in Affinity Photo and probably too wide.

May try again with the .DNG files and see if I can do a little better. Larger version at Flickr.

See how this works?

Pretty cool.

I posted a later shot from this morning on Mastodon, but looking over the images later, I prefer this one. I was hustling to get something posted before I went out for my walk. Doesn't speak to being very "mindful" or "intentional," except to say I was mindful of the time, and I intended to get out there before the sun got much higher.

I like this one better because the sun's just clearing the horizon and there's a boat in the river headed south at speed, and you can see more of the serpentine bend of the Tolomato.

I'm also just having fun watching this automation work.

"It takes nerve to be a Democrat, but it takes money to be a Republican."

-Will Rogers

Being a test post of a new AppleScript to create a blog post from the clipboard.

Working from the Photos to Tinderbox AppleScript, I made one to take the contents of the clipboard and create a new note in the marmot.

This isn't much of a breakthrough for me with regard to Tinderbox, but it does save me a couple of steps if I want to create a post from something I read.

Invoking the script from the Scripts menu, it prompts me for a title for the note (post), and then creates the note and pastes the contents of the clipboard into the $Text of the note. Then I have to write whatever it is I think about that.

This went remarkably smoothly. I have some more ideas, but I'm going to just savor this one for a little bit.

Ideally, it'd capture the application and document file link or URL and populate relevant attributes. Maybe tomorrow...

There's a glitch in your RSS from Jack Baty's Weblog. The link in the RSS item referenced in the previous post points to "baty.blog/posts/2023/07/13.html." It's a blank page.

The actual link is at daily.baty.net.

🫡

Originally posted at Nice Marmot 10:28 Friday, 14 July 2023

I know Jack reads the marmot because when I post something about Tinderbox, I look for a post about Tinderbox from Jack. Sure enough, right after iPhone Camera Test Export, Jack made a brief post about Tinderbox.

Back in the day, we'd all be referencing each other, Alwin Hawkins, Garret Vreeland, Susan Kitchens, Karl Martino, James Vornov, Hal Rager, Shelley Powers, AKMA, Jonathon Delacour, Stavros the Wonder Chicken, Mike Warot and many others. Facebook sucked all the oxygen out of the blogosphere and then Twitter kind of finished the job. Most of those folks still blog, but not with the same frequency and interaction. That's all still in the "social media" space.

Since the marmot is all just static html, I don't have any fancy "trackback" mechanisms, and I look at the hosting company logs so seldom that I don't really understand what I'm looking at when I do. If anyone links to the marmot, I have to be already subscribed to them in RSS to notice. Not that anyone necessarily should link to the marmot. Still, it's nice to know you're not just ranting into the void every now and then.

Anyway, lament aside, I'd say to Jack not to fear anything going pear-shaped in Tinderbox. The simplest thing is to duplicate the Tinderbox file and perform all your experiments in the duplicate. Do a "proof of concept" in a test file before you even do that. If worse comes to worst, and it has a couple of times for me, Mark Bernstein at Eastgate will help if you send him the file and ask politely. Probably worth a visit to the forum first though. And there's always the weekend meetups.

Besides, anyone who can wrangle emacs can definitely master Tinderbox!

My infatuation with "tools for thought" has cooled significantly. I have zero interest in Roam, Obsidian, The Brain, zettelkasten, etc. If I was employed and my job was producing reports with references and so on, then it might be different. Thinking occurs in the brain, writing helps me "see what I think." Tinderbox is a wonderful writing tool. Nodes and edges, links and backlinks, it all comes down to the connections between your ears.

But I still love Tinderbox. (Parenthetically, I just noticed the screenshot on the web page and it "surprised and delighted" me.

The fact that it can do so much more that what I use it for doesn't particularly trouble me. And getting that little "Rule" to work so I can post iPhone pictures the other day just made me so happy. I usually just get frustrated and give up. I treasured that little feeling of accomplishment. Still feels good.

Of course, now I have another idea I want to try, and as we all know, "Trying is the first step toward failure!"

Anyway, just thought I'd say, "Hi, Jack!"

Originally posted at Nice Marmot 08:18 Friday, 14 July 2023

Normally I post "this morning's bird" on Mastodon, as I used to do on Twitter. I get some likes and comments, but they're about the same as I get on Flickr, which is to say, not a lot. Which is fine.

Since it's so easy to do it here now, and since micro.blog mirrors the marmot and posts it to Mastodon anyway, I might as well just do everything here.

Some mornings I go out and don't see any birds worth shooting. (I could make a career out of shooting mockingbirds, but I'd bore myself to death.) I haven't seen many wading birds in the retention ponds lately. I did hear a hawk this morning, and I knew it was close, but I didn't spot it until it flew out of the tree in front of me!

This shot isn't remarkable, the osprey has its back to the camera. But I was able to get closer than I usually do, and this is a crop, so the eye, the beak and the talons were all points of interest. It was grooming itself, so there wasn't much in the way of a "hero pose."

I miss shooting spiders and dragon flies. There are dragon flies around here, but not usually where I walk. I'd have to go out of my way to find them. I think we've just killed off nearly all the spiders. I'd see hundreds of them a decade ago, giant orb weavers. Nothing today. It's sad.

But I like shooting bluebirds and ospreys and the rest, while we still have them. One day, hopefully not in my lifetime, they'll be gone too.